The Woman and her offspring

 

...A great, fiery red dragon

having seven heads and ten horns,

and seven diadems on his heads.

... the dragon [Satan working through King Herod]

stood before the woman [Israel]

who was ready to give birth,

to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

She bore a male Child[The Christ]

who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

And her Child was caught up [Christ's ascension]

to God and His throne.

Then the woman [a remnant of Israel]

fled into the wilderness [during “great tribulation”],

where she has a place prepared by God,

that they should feed her there

one thousand two hundred and sixty days [3 ½ years].

Revelation 12:3-6

… The woman [a remnant of Israel] was given

two wings of a great eagle,

that she might fly into the wilderness [during great tribulation]

to her place, where she is nourished

for a time and times and half a time [ 3 ½ years],

from the presence of the serpent [the dragon and Satan].

^... And the dragon was enraged with the woman,

and he went to make war

with the rest of her offspring [the church/ Christians],

who keep the commandments of God

and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:14-17

The dragon [Satan] gave

him [the “beast” or “Antichrist”]

his power, his throne, and great authority.

... all the world marveled

and followed the beast.

So they worshiped the dragon

who gave authority to the beast;

and they worshiped the beast,

saying, "Who is like the beast?

Who is able to make war with him?"

And he [the beast, Antichrist]

was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies,

and he was given authority

to continue for forty-two months [3 ½ years].

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,

to blaspheme His name,

His tabernacle [the “abomination of desolation”],

and those who dwell in heaven.

It was granted to him

to make war with the saints [“great tribulation”]

and to overcome them.

And authority was given him

over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him,

whose names have not been written

in the Book of Life of the Lamb

slain [Christ's crucifixion]

from the foundation of the world.

If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

He who leads into captivity [during the “great tribulation”]

shall go into captivity;

he who kills with the sword

must be killed with the sword.

Here is the patience and the faith

of the saints [christians/the Church].

Revelation 13:2-10

​At that time Michael [the archangel] shall stand up,

the great prince who stands watch

over the sons of your [Daniel's] people [Israel];

and there shall be a time of trouble [the “great tribulation”],

such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.

And at that time your [Daniel’s] people [Israel]

shall be delivered,

every one who is found written in the book [“the Book of Life”].

Daniel 12:1

[Jesus said:] Therefore when you see

the 'abomination of desolation,'

spoken of by Daniel the prophet,

standing in the holy place [the Jewish temple]

(whoever reads, let him understand),

then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

… For then there will be great tribulation,

such as has not been

since the beginning of the world until this time,

no, nor ever shall be.

And unless those days were shortened,

no flesh would be saved;

but for the elect's [the people of God] sake

those days will be shortened.

Matthew 24:15-22

[Jesus said:] Immediately after the [great] tribulation

of those days

the sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from heaven,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man

will appear in heaven...

they will see the Son of Man coming

on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet

and they will gather together His elect [the people of God]

from the four winds,

from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:29-31

[the Apostle Paul said:] For I do not desire, brethren,

that you should be ignorant of this mystery,

lest you should be wise in your own opinion,

that blindness in part has happened to Israel

until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

And so all Israel [the nation] will be saved,

as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

For this is My [New] covenant with them,

when I take away their sins."

Romans 11:25-27

faith essential

 

The writer of Hebrews in explaining why it is “impossible to please” God “without faith” says that the one “who comes to God must believe that He is,” and the same must believe that God “is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). Obviously, one has to believe that God exists. It is not just believing in His existence, but that He is a “rewarder” of those who diligently seek him. These two things are essential in coming to God, and the second requirement goes far beyond just believing that there is a God.

Believing that God is a “rewarder” of those who diligently seek Him implies several things. It recognizes that God is not far removed from his creation. God is searchable and knowable. He wants to be known. There is revelation from God that tells us about Him. To believe He is a rewarder says something about his character. God not only wants to be known, but He rewards those who diligently seek him with knowledge about Himself. Who is this God and what does He want me to know? If God wants to be known and has made revelation available, then it's not a stretch to conclude there is an accountability to God concerning that revelation.

Not only is there creation to reveal God and which gives reason to believe that He is—faith has an object (such as the evidence of God in creation), and to believe is to have faith—there is special revelation from God of who He is, and what He expects from us, that came through His involvement with mankind through prophets (especially from the nation of Israel) and ultimately through Jesus Christ.

We read in Hebrews 1:1-4: ​¹ God, Who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, ² has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; ³ who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, ⁴ having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The Apostle Paul makes reference to all these things when he was in Athens Greece on a place called the Areopagus, where certain philosophers and Athenians met:

²² Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; ²³ for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.   Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: ²⁴ God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. ²⁵ Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. ²⁶ And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, ²⁷ so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; ²⁸ for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' ²⁹ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. ³⁰ Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, ³¹ because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Acts 17:22-31

Paul's message here addresses these different issues of belief, and it speaks of an accountability to what God has revealed. The ultimate revelation was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead—that God has chosen Him as the revelation to mankind about Himself, and what He wants mankind to know and believe.

70th Week past or future

 

Jason Savoie posts in the group

“Discovering Dispensationalism”:

I have noticed that posttribbers seem to distance themselves from dispensationalism. If a postribber is a futurist, believing the 70Th Week is yet future, and believes in a premill return of Christ with a restoration of national Israel as the people of God for the MK after the GT, wouldn’t that make them dispensational? (They may equate the DOL with the second coming of Christ.)

Ross J Purdy says to Jason Savoie:

What if they agree with everything except that the 70th is future?

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy 

that would be more of a preterist view.

Ross J Purdy says to

Jason Savoie 

On that point. Yet with a future millennial kingdom and a future restored Israel.

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy 

So a view that puts the 70th Week in the past but still believes in a restored Israel and future Millennium? I don't think I've come across that view. Unless it some kind of preterist-futurist view, maybe involving dual fulfillment, or a historicist-futurist view of some kind?

Ross J Purdy says to

Jason Savoie 

Just a futurist view that takes Dan 9 literally. Dan states 70 weeks are DETERMINED. Thus it is an impossibility to interpret it else-wise. Dan does not not say 69 weeks are determined, followed by an indeterminate gap. An indeterminate insertion makes nonsense out of Dan's statement.

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy 

so a gap in the middle of the 70th week? About 40 years?

Ross J Purdy  says to

Jason Savoie 

No. The desolation occurs after the 69th week by about 40 years. That also puts it after the 70th week. Daniel doesn't say the desolation is in the 70th, he only says it is after the 69th without stating how long after.

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy

doesn’t Dan 9:27 put the desolation in the middle of the Week? Jesus quotes 9:27.

Ross J Purdy says to

Jason Savoie 

No. Only the end to sacrifice and offering is put in the middle and is parallel to the Messiah cut off in 26.

The people of the prince is parallel to the one who makes desolate and the destruction, flood, war, desolations is parallel to the consummation poured out on the desolate. This is after the 70 weeks as well as the 69 in AD70 and not part of the 70th. These are negative results and not part of the listed 6 items to be achieved within the 70.

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy 

but Dan 9:27 speaks of the abomination of desolation on the temple in the midst of the week, and the end of the desolation is at the end of the time. And Jesus references Dan 9:27 concerning the AOD, using the LXX. The end of the daily sacrifices in Daniel are referenced several times, along with the AOD. Daniel 12, speaking of “the time of the end,” speaks of the great tribulation, the end of the daily, and the AOD, and a time, times, half a time, the same length of 42 months or 1260 days, the second half of the Week. After the AOD, there will be Great Tribulation, for the second half of the Week, being a time, times, half a time, also referenced as 42 months or 1260 days, according to Revelation chapters 11-13.

Ross J Purdy says to

Jason Savoie

No, not in the midst of the week. Yes Jesus referenced the desolation. The daily sacrifices stopped with every desolation. Dan 12 references the future desolation which is another one. The desolation will be the 3.5 year tribulation. There is no first or second half, there is only the 3.5 year tribulation.

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy

I believe every reference to 3.5 years is the second half of the Week, which ends with the Second Coming, that ends GT. Every reference to putting an end to the daily and AOD in Daniel is the act of either Antiochus 4 (near future from Daniel) or Antichrist (far future from Daniel) , depending on the reference. At the end of the Week, Israel will be restored under the terms of the New Covenant and the MK set up, probably during the extended days to the 3.5 years of Daniel 12: “ And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Ross J Purdy says to

Jason Savoie

 I agree with you on what happens at the end of the tribulation. But there is nothing connecting the 3.5 with any week. We have three passages which mention a 3.5 year period in Revelation. Never a seven year period! If it were a second half of a week, why is a seven year period never mentioned anywhere in Revelation. Why is there nothing remotely indication it is half a week or the second half of something? Given no evidence and no exegetical basis, a seven year period or the notion it is a second half of anything is pure, the most bald assumption.

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy

 the midweek event is what is significant. The event in the holy place is what “reveals” the lawless one, foreshadowed by what Antiochus 4 did. The second half of the Week is how we get the 3 1/2 years of duration, reference in several ways in both Daniel and Revelation. After the 70 Weeks, Israel, Daniel’s “people” (and the “holy city”) will be restored, by Christ, under the terms of the New Covenant. The beginning of the 70th marks a confirming or strengthening of a covenant by the one who will break it, an act that involves what reveals him—that one becomes the beast, the 2 stages from the 7th to the 8th head, and he persecutes Israel and the saints to the end of the Week, defeated at Armageddon, at the coming of Christ, then Israel, Daniel’s people (and the “holy city”), are delivered and saved, at the end of the Week. That’s how I see it.

Ross J Purdy says to

Jason Savoie 

There is no second half nor is there a week to begin with! You are assuming it with no basis.

Nothing in Dan speaks of anyone breaking a covenant. You can't break what is only being confirmed. one might opt out or be excluded, but you can't break what is not in place. There is no indication of an antichrist/beast in Dan 9 nor an anticovenant. Such an answer to Dan's prayer becomes no answer at all and thus an anticlimax to the petition. It is an imposition upon the chapter that not only does not work is, well, simply absurd.

Jason Savoie says to

Ross J Purdy

You are right, Dan 9.27 doesn't say a covenant is broken. That is an assumption.

Some translations say the covenant is “strengthened”--why couldn't an existing covenant or treaty be strengthened for another 7 years, but is broken at the halfway point? I am only looking at possibilities on this. We don't always have every detail laid out. Time will tell how it will all transpire. I take a wait and see approach to a lot of prophecy. Time will tell.

I am using the word “week” because that is what the translations use. Is it an assumption then to use that word? I understand it to be a period of 7 of years, because the first 69 weeks must be 7s of years (483 years) span the time from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the prince, and depending on what dating system one uses, it could be from either Cyrus the Great or Artaxerxes until the year of Christ's “triumphal entry.” So, how's that an assumption with no basis?

You claim there is no second half, but I have 3 translations of 3 different Greek texts of the Old Testament, two Septuagint versions and the Theodotion, and 2 of them speak of “in/ by half of the week'” the other has “midst.” Am I assuming when the text says in half of the week the sacrifices cease and the AOD is in the temple?

I also don't understand why you say there is no AOD in the temple in Dan 9.27. All these Greek texts say there is an AOD in or on the temple in connection with the ceasing of the sacrifices and offerings. Since they happen in the half point, and it's a 7-year period, it just follows that 3 ½ years are left.

The event in the half point and the second half all fit with the length of GT being 3 ½ years, after which, Israel and Jerusalem are delivered by the coming of Christ. Isn't that the conclusion of the 70 weeks, which are determined for Daniel's people and city?

There is a difference between the desolation of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the AOD in the temple by the lawless one/ beast/ antichrist. The former happened after the 69th week (after 483 years plus about 40 years), but the latter is yet future, which I believe is in the 70th 7 of years, which has been postponed.

You may not like the gap view, between the 69th and 70th, but it's not as absurd as putting a 40-year gap in the middle of the 70th Week, which many preterists have to do. And they have to, because Dan 9:27 speaks of the AOD in the temple--which you for some reason deny--and they have to see it as an abomination in the temple in Jerusalem near AD70, but I am convinced that it is the AOD Jesus referenced that immediately precedes the GT yet future.

I just want to add that to claim the end of sacrifice and offering in the midst of the 70th week is the death of Christ is an assumption as well. Everywhere else in Daniel refers to either what Antiochus 4 did (and compare with 1 Maccabees 1.41-49) or what antichrist does, in connection with the AOD in the temple. Dan 9.27 clearly speaks of the AOD in the temple in the Greek texts. So, I have a clear basis for this conclusion.

We may just have to agree to disagree about the 70th weeks relationship to the time of the end.

We may still at least agree about a future 3 ½ year GT and what happens at the end--though I am a posttrib dispy, which I don't know your thoughts on that, but that was what my OP was dealing with, before all this other came up.

What about Israel

What about Israel [the nation]? (Romans 11:11-33)

¹¹ I say then, have they [Israel] stumbled that they should fall [fail]?

Certainly not!

But through their [Israel's] fall, to provoke them to jealousy,

salvation [a special relationship with God] has come to the Gentiles [the nations].

¹² Now if their [Israel's] fall is riches for the world [the Gentiles],

and their failure riches for the Gentiles,

how much more their [Israel's] fullness!

¹³ For I [The Apostle Paul] speak to you Gentiles;

inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles,

I magnify my ministry [to the Gentiles],

¹⁴ if by any means I [Paul] may provoke to jealousy

those who are my flesh [Israel] and save [ that salvation] some of them.

¹⁵ For if their [Israel] being cast away [from special status]

is the reconciling of the world [the Gentiles in relationship with God],

what will their [Israel's] acceptance be but life from the dead [restoration in their special relationship with God]?

¹⁶ For [an analogy] if the firstfruit is holy [devoted to God], the lump [source] is also holy; and if the root [source] is holy, so are the branches.

¹⁷ And if some of the branches [Israel] were broken off [the unbelieving Jews in Jesus as the Christ], and you [Gentiles who believe Jesus is the Christ], being a wild olive tree [the same Gentiles], were grafted in among them [the Jews who did believe Jesus is the Christ], and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness [the privileges and blessings as God's special people for His purposes] of the olive tree,

¹⁸ [believing Gentiles] do not boast against the branches [the Jews who do not believe who were “cut off” from the place of privilege and blessing].

But if you [the same Gentiles] do boast,

remember that you [Gentiles] do not support the root [source of privilege and blessing], but the root supports you.

¹⁹ You [Gentiles] will say then, "Branches [unbelieving Jews] were broken off that I [believing Gentile] might be grafted in [the place of privilege and blessing]."

²⁰ Well said. Because of unbelief they [Jews] were broken off, and you [Gentiles] stand by faith.

Do not be haughty, but fear.

²¹ For if God did not spare the natural branches [Israel], He may not spare you [Gentiles] either.

²² Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell [unbelieving Jews], severity; but toward you [believing Gentiles], goodness, if you [Gentiles] continue in His goodness. Otherwise you [Gentiles] also will be cut off.

²³ And they [Israel] also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in [the place of privilege and blessing], for God is able to graft them in again.

²⁴ For if you [Gentiles] were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature [outside the place of privilege and blessing], and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree [the place of privilege and blessing, as Israel was in], how much more will these [Jews], who are natural branches, be grafted into their own [Israel's] olive tree?

²⁵ For I do not desire, brethren [believers in Jesus as the Christ], that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel [the nation of Israel] until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [the completion of the time with the Gentiles in the place of privilege and blessing through belief in Jesus as the Christ].

²⁶ And so all Israel [“all Israel” as in the nation as a nation of people] will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer [Jesus] will come out of Zion [the Second Coming of Jesus ascending to the Mount of Olives] , And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob [the salvation of Israel, Individually and nationally, their “life from the dead”];

²⁷ For this is My covenant [the “New Covenant” fulfilled as prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34] with them, When I take away their sins [the remission of sins]."

²⁸ Concerning the gospel they [Israel, unbelieving Jews] are enemies for your [believers in Jesus as the Christ] sake, but concerning the election [God's choosing of Abraham's seed] they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of the fathers [Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—the promises made to them].

²⁹ For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable [what God as determined and promised can not be undone].

³⁰ For as you [Gentiles] were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their [Israel's] disobedience,

³¹ even so these [Jews] also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you [Gentiles] they [Jews] also may obtain mercy.

³² For God has committed them all [Jews and gentiles] to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all [Jews and Gentiles].

³³ Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Romans 11:11-33

Philip Melanchthon

 

Philip Melanchthon, 16^th century theologian and

Luther's close colleague in Wittenberg,

produced the Reformation's first general treatment

of Christian doctrine in his 1521 Loci Communes [his theological work].

As he expounded on justification, Melanchthon urged,

"Why is it that justification is attributed to faith alone?

I answer that since we are justified by the mercy of God alone,

and faith is clearly the recognition of that mercy

by whatever promise you apprehend it,

justification is attributed to faith alone."

He goes on to explain,

"Therefore, when justification is attributed to faith,

it is attributed to the mercy of God;

it is taken out of the realm of human efforts, works, and merits.”

Jesus said: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

Peter said, “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." Acts 10:43

Paul said, “But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.” Romans 3:21-22

John said, “But as many as received Him [Jesus], to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12-13

holographic universe

 

click image to enlarge

Only begotten

 Jesus is said to be God's “only begotten.” Some seek to translate this as only “unique” son of God. Though this may be true, there are reasons to see this as a reference to Jesus being the heir. Jesus will be the heir of the nations and the new creation.

Psalm 2 makes a connection between the Son as God's “anointed” (he shall be “king” in “Zion”) being “begotten,” and the nations being his “inheritance.”

​¹ Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing? ² The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, ³ "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us." ⁴ He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. ⁵ Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure: ⁶ "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion." ⁷ "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. ⁸ Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. ⁹ You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.'" Psalms 2:1-9

Jesus being the “begotten” one is referenced in Acts and twice in Hebrews, quoting Psalm 2. ³² And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. ³³ God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' Acts 13:32-33 ⁵ For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? Hebrews 1:5 ⁵ So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." Hebrews 5:5

There is a question as to when the “today” should apply. When did God beget his son? It could be 2 stages. In the resurrection, Jesus has all authority, and that authority at this time is in *giving eternal life. But the full manifestation of that authority will be when the **kingdom comes, and all nations will be under his authority as the second Psalm says.

If the begetting is about Jesus being the heir, then the “today” would speak of when his inheritance and attendant authority is received. It begins in the resurrection, but its full manifestation is the coming kingdom of God.

*​¹ Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, ² as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. John 17:1-2

**¹³ "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. ¹⁴ Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14