Israel's distress

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Dispy and Non

 I'm in a discussion group on Facebook which is an anti-Futurist group, that is, a group that believes most prophecy has been fulfilled in the past or through history. The group is actually called “I left Dispensationalism behind.”

Without getting into defining dispensationalism... I will just say that they, dispensationalists (I will call them Dispys) believe there is a future 7 year period (the “70^th Week of Daniel”) that is unfulfilled, and especially the second half of that period that Daniel and Jesus called “great tribulation.”

Dispys believe that much of the book of Revelation is about that 7 year period and what comes after that period. They believe there is a 1000 year reign of Christ that follows Jesus' “Second Coming” to earth in bodily form: this period is usually called the “Millennium.”

The majority of Dispys believe that before that 7 years begins, there will be a descent of Christ in the air, and the dead believers will be resurrected and the living believers will be caught up (commonly called the “rapture”) together with the resurrected to meet Christ in the air.

Not all Dispys or Futurists believe the same about the timing/ placing of the rapture and resurrection as being before the 7 years for some place it in the middle, others nearer to the end, and some at the end of the 7 years.

Dispys make a distinction between the Church and the nation of Israel, believing that God will save Israel as a nation and people coming out of that 7 year period, and they will be restored in the land promised to Abraham in the Book of Genesis.

Jerusalem will be restored. Christ will rule over the nations in a manifested way with the Law of God going forth from Jeruslaem.

After the Millennium there will be a resurrection of the unbelieving dead who will be judged. Then there will be a new heavens and new earth on which believers in Christ will live forever.

Those who are not futurist and Dispy are either Preterists, Historicists, or Idealists. They usually strongly disagree with the Dispys about the future 7 years, and how the book of Revelation is fulfilled. They believe that God is finished with Israel as distinct people and nation, that either the Church has forever replaced Israel, or they are the continuation of true Israel.

The Church is Jew and Gentile (non-Jew) who believe in Christ, and the Church is the continuation of Israel. The children of Abraham are those who believe, Jew and Gentile who believe—they are the true heirs, not those who of natural descent. There is no future divine purpose for ethnic or national Israel. All prophecies about Israel being restored as a people into the land was fulfilled before or after the Babylonian captivity or in the Church or forfeited forever.

Generally, non-Dispys/ non-futurists are critical of the Jewish State of today and of Dispys who are generally supportive of it--believing in a future divine purpose for the Jewish nation.

Preterists believe most prophecy has been fulfilled in the past, particularly during the destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple in AD70, while historicists see prophecy fulfilled in the past and throughout history.

Historicists believe that both dispensationalism and preterism were created by Jesuit priests to take the attention off the Pope as the antichrist (the “lawless one” or “son of perdition”) in Second Thessalonians chapter 2 who sits in the temple of God and makes divine claims—the temple of God being the Church. Preterists believe that the lawless one is one of the Roman emperors, probably Nero. Historicists would say the antichrist is not a specific person but the office of the pope.

Idealists believe that prophecies, particularly in the Book of Revelation, should be interpreted symbolically and spiritually rather than literally. They view these prophecies as representing timeless truths about the ongoing struggle between good and evil, rather than specific historical events.

The big differences between futurists and non-futurists are the fulfillments of the 7 year period (the “70^th week of Daniel”), the restoration of National Israel as the people of God in the land of promise, and the Millennial reign of Christ in a physical sense over the nations.

Non-futurists do not believe in a Millennium after the second Coming, but it is either a symbolic time reference to the reign of Christ now through the Church and over the nations through the advance of the gospel and the Church, or a 1000 years of a messianic age in which Christian ethics prosper before Christ returns. There is a view called “historic premillennialism” that believes in a millennial reign of Christ after the second Coming, but they focus on one people of God and probably differ on the future of Israel as a people and nation.

Non-futurists/ non-Dispys accuse the futurists/ Dispys of being doom and gloom because the futurist-dispy understanding of Scripture is that things will get much worse, especially in light of the things of which Revelation speaks.

Futurists believe in a period of “great tribulation” and divine judgments on the earth. They may see Jesus' “Olivet Discourse” about the wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, famines, earthquakes, and pestilences increasing as we near the time of the end. They believe deception will increase, along with people hating one another as evil increases. Even though Christian persecution is increasing--some say it is worse now than any past time--it will get much worse.

Preterists and historicists believe this is doom and gloom theology, and they attribute it to that futuristic interpretation of scripture that they believe is in error.

Time will tell.

But as a final positive note, Non-Futurists (accept for full preterists—which I won't discuss here) and Futurists do agree that Jesus is coming again to earth, and he will raise the dead, some to everlasting life and some to judgment; and there will be a new heavens and earth in which righteousness dwells, and the righteous shall live and reign with Christ forever.

Futurist Timeline

 click image to enlarge

Israel Again

 ²⁵ For I do not desire, brethren,
that you [gentiles] should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest you [gentiles] should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel
until the fullness of the Gentiles
has come in.

… if they [Israelites] do not continue in unbelief,
will be grafted in,
for God is able
to graft them in **again.**

²⁴ For if you [gentiles] were cut out of the olive tree
which is wild by nature,
and were grafted contrary to nature
into a cultivated olive tree,
how much more will these,
who are natural branches [Israelites],
be grafted into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:23-25

What does he mean by “graft them in again?”

Since there were already natural branches
still attached to the tree as believing Jews,
does this only apply to Jews living at the time of Paul,
who were broken off due to unbelief,
but if they would believe later, they could be reattached?

Because how could the word “again” apply?

Unless something more than individual salvation is in view,
a salvation that involves a people or nation...

²⁶ And so all Israel will be saved,
as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
²⁷ For this is My covenant with them [Israel],
When I take away their sins."
²⁸ Concerning the gospel they [Israel] are enemies
for your [believing gentiles] sake,
but concerning the election
they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
²⁹ For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:26-29

Charles Hodge from his Romans Commentary:

"Israel here must mean the Jewish people,
and 'all Israel' the whole nation. 
The Jews, as a people, are now rejected;
as a people they are to be restored. 
As their rejection, although national,
did not include the rejection of every individual,
so their restoration though national,
need not include the salvation of every Jew. 
All Israel does not mean all the true people of God,
as Augustine, Calvin, and others explain it;
nor all the elect Jews -- i.e., all that part of the nation
which constitute 'the remnant according to the election of grace'
--but the whole nation, as a nation.”

Charles Hodge, was a Presbyterian theologian of reformed theology
and was principal of Princeton Theological Seminary 
between 1851 and 1878.

Time of gentiles

Couldn't the "time of the gentiles"

be the time of their distress,

being the "Day of the Lord”?

The DOL is the Second Coming of Christ. Read 2Peter3.

See the use in Ezekiel:

"Wail, 'Woe to the day!'
For the day is near,
Even the day of the LORD is near;
It will be a day of clouds,

the time of the Gentiles.

Ezekiel 30:2-3

...Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles

until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

²⁵ "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars;

and on the earth distress of nations,

with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

²⁶ men's hearts failing them from fear

and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth,

for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

²⁷ Then they will see the Son of Man coming

in a cloud with power and great glory.

²⁸ Now when these things begin to happen,

look up and lift up your heads,

because your redemption draws near."

Luke 21:24-28

Evil shaping identity

 A recent question was asked: couldn't God have created us with freewill without there being evil?

My response: I can only think that God could have created angels and man with a very limited free will in which they could not have disobeyed with the resulting evils, but it is not the world he created.

Angels and man were created with the ability to know and do evil.

Whether we like it or not.

But, He has also provided for deliverance from the consequences of evil, but it won't be fully realized until the new creation.

What's interesting is how what happens in this life is what shapes our identity--who we are.

If we have the salvation that comes through Christ, we will spend eternity with people who are likewise saved and have their own unique past life experiences that had a role in shaping their identity—who they were/ are.

Carcass Eagles Idiom

 ²³ "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

²⁴ For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

²⁵ See, I have told you beforehand.

²⁶ "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

²⁷ For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

²⁸ For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Matthew 24:23-28

It's an idiom like "where there is smoke there's fire."

Jesus is answering the question of his disciples as to where the Second Coming will be.

He is saying it will be obvious.

And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" Luke 17:37

So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." Luke 17:37