Svigel, Irenaeus and Pretrib

 

I recently read Michael Svigel's book "The Fathers on the Future" which shows that several early church Fathers were futurists, and especially Irenaeus. 

Svigel discusses a statement by Irenaeus that he believes supports a pre-70th week rapture (Svigel is a pre-70th week rapturist, that is "pretrib"). 

“When in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (Against Heresies V, 29, 1)

The statement by Irenaeus seems unclear and maybe contradictory because elsewhere Irenaeus speaks of Christians on earth during the tribulation (pretribs usually identify the whole 70th Week as "the tribulation"), but Svigel seeks to explain this as Irenaeus believed faithful Christians (those "truly" saved) will be caught up before the tribulation, while the unfaithful (professing Christians that are not really saved) are left behind to face the antichrist.

“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings… And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (Against Heresies V, 26, 1)

“…so that when this man comes WE may avoid him, being aware who he is.” (Against Heresies V, 30, 3–4)

“…the resurrection of the just… takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” (Against Heresies V, 35, 1)

From   "Search Assist"

• Caught Up Statement: Irenaeus wrote, “When in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’” This statement is frequently referenced by proponents of the pretribulation rapture.

• Context of Tribulation: Despite the above statement, Irenaeus also indicated that the Church would face persecution during the tribulation. He described the tribulation as “the last contest of the righteous,” suggesting that believers would endure trials before being rewarded.



While some interpret Irenaeus' writings as evidence for a pretribulational rapture, a closer examination reveals that he did not have a clearly defined rapture theology. His belief that the Church would face tribulation before being caught up aligns more closely with a post-tribulation perspective.

From joelstrumpet.com:

Few debates in eschatology today are as heated as the question of whether the early church fathers taught a pretribulational rapture. In recent years, teachers such as Lee Brainard and Mike Golay have made the audacious claim that Irenaeus, one of the most significant second-century fathers, supported a pretribulational view. Does the evidence support this? 

 The answer is clear: no. Both the academic consensus and Irenaeus’ own words demonstrate that he expected the church to face the Antichrist and the tribulation before being gathered to Christ. Attempts to portray him as pretribulational are either careless or deliberately misleading.

Scholars across the spectrum—whether premillennial, amillennial, or dispensational, agree that the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, did not teach a pretribulational rapture.

  “The Church Fathers believed that the Church would be on earth during the tribulation period. This is seen in the earliest writers and there is nothing in the other writers to contradict this.” —Charles August Hauser, Jr., The Eschatology of the Early Church Fathers

 “…the early fathers largely held to a period of persecution that would be ongoing when the return of the Lord takes place and most would see the church suffering through some portion of the tribulation period.” —James Stitzinger, The Rapture in Twenty Centuries of Biblical Interpretation

 “The preponderance of evidence seems to support the concept that the early church did not clearly hold to a rapture as preceding the endtime tribulation period…. the early church fathers … should be classified as posttribulational.” —John F. Walvoord, The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation

 “One of [the early Church’s] distinctive features is that it places the Rapture of the Church at the end of the Tribulation, combining it with the Second Coming as one event.” —David Reagan, Wrath and Glory

Even dispensationalist historian and director of the Pretribulational Research Center, Dr. Tommy Ice concedes: “When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus’ writings, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.”

Richardson writes:

Svigel suggests that Irenaeus may have envisioned something like a “partial pretribulation rapture.” 

 He argues that when Irenaeus speaks of the Church being “suddenly caught up” (Against Heresies 5.29.1), he may have meant that the truly “spiritual” Christians, those living faithfully like Enoch and Elijah, would be taken before the tribulation. 

Meanwhile, the “carnal” or “unprepared” Christians would remain and endure the persecutions of Antichrist, being purified through that ordeal. 

Svigel grounds this reading in Irenaeus’ pre-Augustinian soteriology (salvation as a process) and in parallels with the Shepherd of Hermas, which also depicts some escaping tribulation while others are tested. In this way, Svigel tries to reconcile Irenaeus’ seemingly contradictory statements: one passage possibly suggesting the Church being caught up before the tribulation, and another showing the Church facing Antichrist, and yet another showing survivors entering the kingdom.

While Svigel’s approach... still strains against the plain reading of Irenaeus’ words, as we summarized above. 

Again, briefly: 

 1. Irenaeus makes multiple explicit Post-Trib statements: 

 • He says the resurrection of the just occurs after the Antichrist (5.35.1). Since Paul unites resurrection and rapture (1 Thess 4:16–17), this is decisively post-trib. 

 • He warns believers to recognize the Antichrist (5.30.3–4). This only makes sense if they are present during his rise. 

 • He states that the Antichrist will “put the Church to flight” (5.26.1), which contradicts any safe removal beforehand. 

 2. One can also argue that even the “Caught Up” passage itself (5.29.1) points to a post tribulational scenario. Irenaeus explicitly connects the Church’s assumption with “the last contest of the righteous”—a climactic trial to be endured, not an escape to be avoided. 

 3. The “partial rapture” theory, proposed as a solution, while interesting and possible, is not actually found in Irenaeus’ words. Irenaeus doesn’t divide believers into two classes with separate destinies. 

 4. Scholarly consensus remains to view Irenaeus as postribulational. Even Svigel concedes that Irenaeus cannot be straightforwardly claimed for pretribulationism. At most, he sees ambiguity. The broader scholarly consensus, from Hauser, Stitzinger, Walvoord, and Ice, still classifies Irenaeus as post-trib. 

To suggest that Irenaeus contradicted himself, teaching both pretrib and posttrib in different passages, makes him incoherent. A far better solution is to take him at his word: 

 • The Church will face the Antichrist. 

 • Believers must be prepared to recognize him.

 • The resurrection and rapture occur after his destruction. 

 • The gathering of the Church is one climactic event at Christ’s return. 

This interpretation is consistent across his writings and with the broader early church tradition.

Did John write

 

A man on Facebook recently said to me that “we do not know who wrote the Gospel of John.” I didn't ask him who “we” were. I figured he meant that nobody knows.

His point was that if we can't confirm the historical accuracy of the writing, since we don't even know who the author was, then we can't confirm the words in it attributed to Christ.

I was showing from the Gospel of John that Jesus said things that were in agreement with the Apostle Paul.

There are these claims out there that the Apostle Paul and Jesus are not in agreement.

There is the claim that Jesus and Paul differed on what the terms of salvation/ eternal life are.

I showed that both Jesus (from the Gospel of John) and Paul said that eternal life is through faith in Jesus Christ.

But that got shot down because “we don't know who wrote the Gospel of John”--so the man claimed.

I said to him that we know that the Gospel of John was written by the disciple who leaned on Jesus' breast during the last Passover the disciples had with Jesus right before His crucifixion.

The man said that that was not true.

So I quoted the Gospel of John to him:

“²⁰ Then Peter, turning around,

saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following,

who also had leaned on His breast at the supper,

and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?"

²¹ Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, 'But Lord, what about this man?'

²² Jesus said to him, 'If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.'

²³ Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, 'If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?'

²⁴ This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.”

John 21:20-24

I did not hear again from that man.

It is interesting that one of the oldest manuscript fragments of the New Testament is of the Gospel of John, dating to the early 2^nd Century, possibly even AD 100. It was found in Egypt. The Apostle is believed to have lived into his 90's, dying of old age and not martyrdom like the other Apostles.

What must I do

THE QUESTION:

What must I do to be saved?

THE ANSWER:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Acts 16:31

The word saved (or salvation) is used with the understanding that one is not right with God and needs deliverance from the resulting consequence (to be identified later).

The word saved simply speaks of “deliverance.”

The question is seeking the answer (or solution) to one's present situation of not being right with God and the consequence.

The answer is that one is saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for that deliverance.
Sin is why one is not right with God and faces the consequence.

The issue with sin is that it is a violation of God’s nature and moral law.

Everyone is guilty of sin: For all have sinned.... Romans 3:23

Sin is subject to consequence or penalty.

The penalty is also called death: The wages of sin is death.

Romans 6:23

The wages of sin is the penalty of sin, being death.

Death means one is separated from God, and if this is not corrected, it continues forever.

Salvation can also be understood as the forgiveness of sins.

To Him all the prophets witness that, through His [Jesus'] name, whoever believes in Him [Jesus] will receive forgiveness of sins.  Acts 10:43

Forgiveness of sins speaks of being released from the penalty of sin being death.

This release is salvation.

This forgiveness is according to God’s word and promise.

This forgiveness is offered through Jesus because He died for those sins as the substitute for everyone.

This forgiveness through Jesus has the witness of all the prophets.

The death that Jesus died on the cross was to bear the penalty (wages) of sin.

Who Himself [Jesus] bore our sins in His own body on the tree [the cross]. 1 Peter 2:24

This death of Jesus was how God so loved the world.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

It is because of the death of Jesus for our sins that we can be forgiven and be delivered from death, resulting in everlasting life.

Everlasting life is salvation, because the alternative is to perish, which is death.

That death is ultimately being assigned to that place called Hell, apart from God, forever.

Jesus said, do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10.28

Hell is destruction of body and soul apart from God, while everlasting life is life with God forever.

Why must it be this way?

It is because God created man with a free will. Man in his free will sinned against God, and the result was separation from God. This separation is death.

Yet God made provision for this through the death of Jesus for our sins who Himself did not sin:

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us. 2 Corinthians 5:21

This forgiveness and life comes through believing in Jesus who was made sin for us.

Consider that we did not choose our parents, and yet our parents usually love us and want a relationship with us, and us with them.

The situation is similar with God.

Most people want to enjoy life and have meaningful relationships.

These things are fulfilled by God through that salvation which is through believing or trusting in Jesus for that salvation.

This life and salvation is the possession of those who believe in Jesus for it:

That whoever believes in Him [Jesus] should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:15

This answers the question as to how to be saved.

Inordinate desire

 I see the sin nature as an inclination we all have of inordinate desire. By inordinate desire, I mean desire outside the moral will of God. That inordinate desire could be stronger in certain areas, differing from person to person. Maybe one has more of inclination to steal or lie or lose their temper. The evidence of the inordinate desire is brought out by God’s moral law when we try to keep the law, as Paul talks about in Romans 7, when he discovered the inability of the law to keep him from coveting, because of a “law” that “evil” was present within him. So why couldn’t homosexual attraction be that inordinate desire that is unique in a person like lying or stealing in another? In my youth, I had this inclination to steal. I knew it was wrong, but I chose to give into that drawing to do so. Does an inordinate desire have to hurt someone to be a sin—as some will claim? Covetousness doesn’t really hurt anyone, but it is still sin, and I believe it is equated with idolatry. We all can have a tendency towards covetousness. Anyway, it has been my understanding of the sin nature that it is inordinate desire within us, being a desire outside the moral will of God, and it can be stronger in some areas than others depending on the person.

impossible repentance

 Hebrews chapter 6 speaks of the impossibility

of renewing again to repentance

those who have experienced several things

that speak of salvation and then fall away:

“For it is impossible

for those who were once enlightened,

and have tasted the heavenly gift,

and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

and have tasted the good word of God

and the powers of the age to come,

if they fall away,

to renew them again to repentance.”

Hebrews 6:4-6

It would seem that when someone “falls away” from what they once believed, it will be next to impossible for them to have a change of mind back to (repentance) what they once believed.

They not only have changed their mind and fallen away from their former belief, but they look for every argument under the sun to strengthen their opposition to that former belief, digging themselves into a hole so deep, that it would take Divine intervention to lift them out.

If a person falls away from the truth, what will it take to bring them back--maybe a special Divine  manifestation—like Saul of Tarsus experienced on the road to Damascus when he was “breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord.” Acts 9:1

Has anyone ever seen it happen...believers who were once Bible teachers and evangelists who became agnostic-atheists who are now apologists in opposition to God and enemies of the gospel of Christ? Has anyone ever seen such come to repentance before they died? I know of those who have fallen and are now enemies of God.

(Actually, I don't believe Hebrews 6 is specifically talking about becoming an agnostic or atheist but about leaving the gospel of grace in Christ for the Law of Moses for justification before God, but the principle is the same.)

The author of Hebrews speaks of the impossibility of being renewed again to repentance, but is it impossible with God?

There is this Scripture:

“a servant of the Lord must not quarrel

but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,

in humility correcting those who are in opposition,

if God perhaps will grant them repentance,

so that they may know the truth,

and that they may come to their senses

and escape the snare of the devil,

having been taken captive by him to do his will.”

2 Timothy 2:24-26

So maybe there is still hope before they pass away from this life.

But there is this warning in what follows in Hebrews 6:

“⁷ For the earth which drinks in the rain

that often comes upon it,

and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated,

receives blessing from God;

⁸ but if it bears thorns and briers,

it is rejected and near to being cursed,

whose end is to be burned.”

Hebrews 6:7-8

And then we read in Hebrews 10:

^“30 For we know Him who said,

"Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.

And again, "The LORD will judge His people."

³¹ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

³² But recall the former days in which,

after you were illuminated,

you endured a great struggle with sufferings:

³³ partly while you were made a spectacle

both by reproaches and tribulations,

and partly while you became companions

of those who were so treated; ...

³⁵ Therefore do not cast away your confidence,

which has great reward.

³⁶ For you have need of endurance,

so that after you have done the will of God,

you may receive the promise:

³⁷ "For yet a little while,

And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

³⁸ Now the just shall live by faith;

But if anyone draws back,

My soul has no pleasure in him."

Hebrews 10:30-38

Do not cast away your confidence.

You are called to endurance.

He is coming.

But take heed, lest you fall (1Cor10.12).

But God …

”is able to keep you from falling,

and to present you faultless

before the presence of His glory

with exceeding joy.”

Jude 1:24

Future kingdom

 There is the claim that Christ is reigning in his kingdom now, that there is no future millennial reign of Christ before the final, eternal state.  The millennial reign is now through the church.  I believe it is significant that it is written that Jesus spent 40 days with his disciples after the resurrection, speaking on things pertaining to the kingdom of God:  "... He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God." Acts 1:3 After Jesus told them to wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit, they asked him if the kingdom would be then restored to Israel: "Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" Acts 1.6  How could they ask this after being taught about the kingdom of God, if there wasn't to be any restoration of Israel?  Jesus doesn't correct them by saying that there will be no restoration of Israel, instead, he says the timing is not for them to know:   "And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." Acts 1:6-8   

The disciples were not taught that there was no future restoration of Israel.   They still expected it, and they were not corrected about it, except that the timing of it was not for them to know.  hat they did not know was what God was going to do in the near future that would involve creating a new people for his purposes, being the gentile-jew assembly, commonly called the "Church."  This "dispensation," being a new divine administration or stewardship, is only a temporal purpose of God in time.  This is the time of the millennial kingdom of Christ.  The kingdom is in a sense represented in the church, as Christ's ambassadors, but it is not the kingdom in the sense in which Christ will reign over the earth from Jerusalem over the nations in a manifested way, as we see in the Old Testament prophets, like Isaiah or Micah:  

² Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD's house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
³ Many people shall come and say,
"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
⁴ He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore. Isaiah 2:2-4

​¹ Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD's house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
² Many nations shall come and say,
"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths."
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
³ He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
⁴ But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,
And no one shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.
⁵ For all people walk each in the name of his god,
But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God
Forever and ever. Micah 4:1-5

Futurists believe the kingdom is yet future, and not all of them would agree in an "already/ not yet" kingdom of Christ, but I believe you could say Christ reigns in a sense through the Church now, being that His kingdom authority is represented in the Church, but his manifested reign over the earth and nations is yet future.   It will involve a restoration of Israel as a people and Nation in which Romans 11:16 is fulfilled when "all Israel will be saved":  this is the restoration of the nation as a people of God in which all of its members will have salvation; it will be a new dispensation, being the millennial reign of Christ in which Israel will be restored as a people in special relationship and role for God.  This will not change the terms of salvation any more than how someone was justified during the Old Testament times--Abraham was justified by faith, but it is a change of people for God's purposes in time. During the future reign of Christ,  people will be identified by their nation, Israel being one of them:   

"In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land,  whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, 'Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.'" Isaiah 19:24-25

moral decline

 The apostle Paul in his last letter (to Timothy) prophesied a moral decline as time progresses...

" But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!" 2Tim3.1-5

"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived."
2Tim3.13

In saying these things, Paul instructs Timothy...

"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2Tim3.14-17