control struggle

There has been a struggle between men and women from the beginning of the “Fall.” 

 You can take from this what you want ... 

but God revealed to Eve, after the sin that led to the curse on creation, that “your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” (Genesis 3:16b) 

 If you were to study out this wording used here with what God said to Cain, when his offering was not accepted as was Abel's, you would find the desire of the one is to control the other: “If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And *its desire is for you, but you shall rule over it*” (Genesis 4:7) 

 The desire is to control. 

 Hasn't this been the struggle whether in relationships or inordinate desire?

Women roles

 

Back in the early 80's, when I was still a member in a SBC church (Southern Baptist Convention), I took classes through a SBC school called Luther Rice Seminary.

I believe this school came about, because of--for at least one reason--the liberal direction of the SBC seminaries at the time.

I took a class in Typology, and the textbook was written by a woman; her name was Ada R. Habershon. Luther Rice was a conservative SBC school, and yet, we used a book written by a woman on a theological topic.

I am writing this because of all the fuss recently about the role of women in the church.

I believe the issue is ultimately whether women can be in an office of authority over men, being an elder (or overseer—which I understand to be the same thing).

I've read some comments on both sides of the issue.

There's no need for me to write a book on it, because those already exist.

I would just like to make some points. For what it is worth.

I made reference to the use of the book by a woman in the SBC seminary (I actually was in the Bible College Division). The issue isn't whether men can learn from the efforts of women. Luther Rice didn't seem to have a problem with that.

You can learn from anybody, and like anything, you have to judge what they are saying. I read a book on Intelligent Design by Kitty Ferguson (obviously a woman, with the name “Kitty”) titled “The Fire In The Equations” which I thought was a great book, even though I perceived she wasn't a young earth creationist as I am. I can listen to or read anything by anybody, but I just seek to discern what is worth latching onto and what is not, or what needs further investigation.

Another point is in the meaning and use of words.

The word “pastor” seems to have taken on a more specific meaning than its broader meaning. “Pastor” translates the same Greek word as for “shepherd,” and it could more generally apply to anyone who teaches others, but it has taken on a more specific application for the head/lead elder who is usually a vocational elder—he gets paid to “pastor” the church—an old pastor friend of mine use to call him “the hired gun.” But in a general sense, the pastor is a teacher, and both men and women can fulfill that role. That role is not the same as being an elder, which is an office for which one has to be qualified. Though Ephesians 4:11 has “pastor-teacher” as one of the things given to the church, “pastor” is not in the Apostle Paul's list in First Corinthians 12:28 of spiritual gifts, but “teacher” is—which is set as third in importance in the Church after Apostles and Prophets. Why isn't there a reference to “pastors?” I believe pastor and teacher are interchangeable as to function.

The word “preach,” like pastor, has taken on a more specific meaning, such as giving the “sermon” to the congregation, but the word simply means to “herald” a message. It's not limited to just men to do such. And this is a role, or a function, not limited to the office of elder. Of course the question will be asked whether a woman can do this as the sermon to the church. Is it stepping over the line? It may be. Personally, I can choose to listen to a woman “preach” like I read a book. I will judge its content.

I don't want to write a book on the issue, but I'm sure I will make people mad because I didn't address all the relevant Scriptures on the issue.

I do believe when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit (roles or functions in the Church for its edification), a woman can do what a man can do as far as the general understanding of the roles and the words used for those roles.

There can be circumstances where it is more appropriate for one sex over the other to fulfill a certain function.

I don't believe having a certain gift is the same thing as having the office of elder. Not only are there qualifications (1 Timothy 3:1-7), it is, what I can see in Scripture, limited to men (I know about the male pronoun being added to the text).

Even men who are gifted teachers may not qualify to be an elder.

Some men become elders who are not qualified, because their homes are not in order—their children are out of control, or they have a violent temper, or they are not able to teach, have a bad reputation, etc.

Men and women are equals as persons, and yes, “there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:8), but that does not mean God hasn't put limits on what the sexes can do in this temporal stage of life. I'm sure it will be different in the age to come.

The Apostle Paul said that he did “not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man” (1 Timothy 2:11). I take that “authority over a man” to mean a woman should not be in a place of authoritative leadership over a man--at least in a spiritual sense. Many will disagree with this view.

In the end, we will all give account to Christ for what we believe and practice, at the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Jewish State

 

Here I go again...

I will admit that I support a Jewish state primarily because I believe Israel, as a people and nation, will be restored at the second coming of Christ.

I believe the Jewish people should have the right to dwell safely in a land, and why not in the land that was originally promised to them by God?

I do believe that they are as a nation still under the consequences of the wrath of God, and anything that is established now for them as a nation is only temporary.

Someone claimed that Muslims are fleeing to other nations because of Israel, but they are leaving many nations that have nothing to do with Israel, and there are many non-Jews that live in Israel. I've been there and can attest to that.

The non-Jewish Palestinians who chose to leave the land of Israel when the Arabs attacked back in 1948, chose to do so with the intention of taking the land of the Jews after they were defeated--"driven into the Mediterranean Sea"--but that didn't happen.

The Arab nations could absorb those Palestinians, but they choose not to--so to always have an accusation against the Jewish State and blame the Palestinians being still in camps on "the occupation."

The British gave the Arabs, the land of Jordan. They were supposed to give Israel land, but they didn't, and President Clinton worked out a Palestinian state plan with Arafat, but in the end he rejected it.

The government of Gaza, which is Hamas, continually shoots rockets in Israel, and they have hundreds of miles of tunnels, so what is Israel To do? When Hamas uses their own citizens as Shields, it's very hard to fight a war. In past wars, the United States killed civilians in the attempt to defeat the Japanese and the Germans; it's not the way you would like it, but what do you do? War is not simply maintaining an equal number of people killed. In World War II, Hitler and the Nazis in Germany had to be stopped. Japan had to be stopped. It's not about equal numbers. It's about stopping them.

Israel's turning

 Israel's future turning away from sin/ ungodliness...

I believe the references to Israel being turned away from godliness and sin is a standing and state distinction.

We read this in Romans, chapter 11:26-27, where it says "the Deliverer will come out of Zion and He will turn ungodliness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

We see this also in the book of Acts where Peter talks about Israel, being blessed by the coming of Jesus, "in turning every one of you away from your iniquities," Acts 3:26.

I believe the turning away has to do with their state, their conduct, while the remission of sins has to do with their standing, their identity.

Because of the remission of sins, which changes their standing and identity before God, they will turn away from their ungodliness/ iniquities. Though not stated, remission of their sins will result in their new birth. And by the enablement of the new birth and the knowledge of the remission of their sins, they will be motivated and enabled to have a conduct consistent with their new standing with God.

We can see standing and state in Titus 2:11 that says "for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly less we should live sober, righteously, and godly in this present age, looking for the blessed hope, and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

By the grace of God, we are saved, and that salvation teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly righteously and godly in this present age, as we look for the blessed Hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 

The standing is not determine by the state, but the state is an expected result and a guaranteed potential of the standing—it's not automatic but is a potential reality. Because of all that will happen with Israel as a people and nation at the coming of Christ, they will be the people God wanted them to be, because of the remission of their sins, by the grace of God.

Fig Tree parable

 ³² "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. ³³ So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! ³⁴ Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. ³⁵ Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. Matthew 24:32-35

The fig tree was used as an analogy by Jesus.

When the fig tree's branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all the things about which Jesus spoke, you can know his coming (and the "Day of the Lord" wrath) is near--"at the door." Matthew 24:32-33

The cosmic signs at the end of great tribulation will mean His coming is "at the door":

²⁹ "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:29-31

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." Luke 21:25-28

Also consider:

"12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:12-17

^“9 Proclaim this among the nations: "Prepare for war! Wake up the mighty men, Let all the men of war draw near, Let them come up. ¹⁰ Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, 'I am strong.'" ¹¹ Assemble and come, all you nations, And gather together all around. Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD. ¹² "Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. ¹³ Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow— For their wickedness is great." ¹⁴ Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. ¹⁵ The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness. ¹⁶ The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel.” Joel 3:9-16

​”¹ Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. ² For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. ³ Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. ⁴ And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. ⁵ Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.” Zechariah 14:1-5

^“12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. ¹³ And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ¹⁵ "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." ¹⁶ And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.” Revelation 16:12-16

Concerning “this generation” not passing away until all these things fulfilled:

I believe there is good reason to see this as a reference to the character of the nation of Israel, and not with reference to a time period, being the First Century.

Matt 24:34 (NKJV) "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”

That generation of Israel according to her character would not pass away until all the things prophesied would take place. “This generation” is often identified as an evil and adulterous generation by Christ.

Matthew 12:39  But He answered and said to them, "An  evil  and adulterous  generation  seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Luke 11:29  And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, "This is an  evil   generation . It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.

Matthew 11:16  "But to what shall I liken  this   generation ? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companion."

23:36-37a  "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon  this   generation.  " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!"

Mark 8:38  "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in  this  adulterous and sinful  generation , of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

Luke 16:8

(NKJV Strong's Bible) So the master commended the unjust steward because he had dealt shrewdly. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light."

 

 Peter said, And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from  this  perverse  generation . Acts 2:40

 

Psalm 78:8

"And not be like their fathers,

A stubborn and rebellious generation,

A generation that did not prepare its heart

And whose spirit was not faithful to God."

Spiritual Gifts Thoughts

 1) Spiritual gifts are divine enablements—grace given by God through the Holy Spirit—to fulfill a role in the body of Christ for its edification and equipping others for ministry.

--⁶ Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; ⁷ or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; ⁸ he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:6-8

--⁷ But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. ⁸ Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." ...¹¹ And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, ¹² for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, ¹³ till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; ¹ Ephesians 4:7-14

2) Not all have the same gift(s).

--²⁷ Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. ...²⁹ Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? ³⁰ Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 1 Corinthians 12:27-30

3) The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. The believer has control over the use of his gift; he can determine to exercise it or not, and this is to maintain a degree of order and opportunity in the assembly.

--³² And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. ³³ For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:32-33

--²⁷ If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. ²⁸ But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. ²⁹ Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. ³⁰ But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. ³¹ For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 1 Corinthians 14:27-31

--⁴⁰ Let all things be done decently and in order. 1 Corinthians 14:40

4) The usual requirement of the Sunday Morning sermon and the requirement to keep the attention of children and adults for Sunday School classes may be more than what the gifts provide. The gift of teaching or knowledge may be some short simple truth to impart to the gathering, but instead, there is an expectation to have something that can keep the attention of people, often requiring some degree of entertainment.

--²⁹ Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. ³⁰ But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. ³¹ For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 1 Corinthians 14:279-31

5) The Apostle Paul speaks of a maturity principle concerning the gifts, or at least concerning certain gifts in First Corinthians 13:8-12.

What he says is somewhat obscure and open to debate.

In referencing the gifts of knowledge—though he may just mean particular knowledge and not the gift itself—and prophesying and tongues, he speaks of their incompleteness and transience.

Paul speaks of that which is complete, which is to come, when that which is incomplete or partial will go away. This complete thing is not identified.

Some say Scripture, and some say it's the coming of Christ or the kingdom.

It would seem that the complete and the incomplete should be the same kind of thing: complete knowledge will replace incomplete knowledge. But that doesn't necessarily mean the completed canon of Scripture is in view.

It could be the conditions that will exist at the coming of Christ with reference to knowledge. One might conclude this with Paul's words: “ For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12

Yet, interestingly, Paul also says: ^“When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” 1 Corinthians 13:11 This speaks of maturity.

Maybe the obscurity is in the fact that there is a progressive move away from the need for certain gifts as the Church matured. Maybe there was less of a need for the more miraculous sign gifts to establish the Church as it matured. What was needed early on would gradually fade away as the church matured from a child to an adult—something like that.

The church still needs the roles necessary for its edification and equipping, but not in the same way.

Obviously, something has changed in the way the church looks and functions today. It could be that the church is more carnal, or tradition has limited it proper function, or it could be a combination of all these things: carnality, tradition, and a certain maturity since the First Century.

Whatever has happened over the centuries, regarding spiritual gifts, the principle that every believer is a part of the body and has a role in its edification needs to be maintained.

Nee's Local Churches

Watchman Nee, a Chinese evangelist in the early 20th century, started what was called "local churches," being that there should be only one Christian church in each city, named according to that city-- such as "the church that was in Jerusalem." 

According to Nee, this means that "the church in her locality must be inclusive, not exclusive," that is, it "must include all the children of God in the whole spectrum of Christian faith and practice." 

He believed in a plurality of elders but rejected the distinction between clergy and laity. 

He believed the gatherings should center around the Lord's Supper.  

The local churches would practice mutuality in their meetings based on verses such as First Corinthians 14:26: "Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up"--participants are encouraged to request hymns, make brief comments, or offer prayers or praises at will.  (This info comes from Wikipedia.)

I suppose this didn't exclude the need for meeting in smaller groups, but only that those groups within a particular city would be the church of that city. The churches of the New Testament writings were identified by the city they resided in. 

There is the debate as to whether the New Testament is giving a prescription or description of Church function, but surely First Corinthians 14 is not merely descriptive, since Paul was instructing the Church about how it should function to accomplish its purpose to edify and equip for ministry when they come together.

Most Churches' "Sunday Morning Worship service" functions much different than Nee's local churches.  

What if the church had a tradition that aligned more with Nee's view of the church, as opposed to the large auditorium gathering with the one-man Sunday morning sermon-service?